AvatarWiki - User contributions [en]

Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-24T04:58:46Z

Spaghetti: Removing banners in wake of clarification.

The [[Shield Of The Tree]] is a difficult quest in the Transfigured Forest. It is very hard to solo parts of the quest and will require several players or several alts with different alignments/fighting styles.

You will need eight different items before you are ready to obtain the shield.

Three can be found scattered around the area, in no fixed location.

<spoiler>
Retrieve the following items:
* [[Clump Of Stone|clump of stone]]
* [[Clump Of Leaves|clump of leaves]]
* [[Clump Of Ice|clump of ice]]
These are scattered around on several mobs. The ice is in the tree on a [[Giant Creature Of Ice]], the leaves on a [[Giant-Shaped Swirl Of Leaves]], and the stone on a [[Trunk Of Stone]] near the entrance.
</spoiler>

You will also need four items which will generally require four different characters to gain.

<spoiler>
You will also need to get one of each of the mana items:
* [[Gnarled Branch Of Age]]
* [[Swirl Of Fumes]]
* [[Grey Orb Of Stone]]
* [[Crackling Sphere Of Lightning]]
Since each of these require a certain type of player to get you will need a mix of good/melee, good/caster, evil/melee, evil/caster.
</spoiler>

After you have all these items get started by getting the [[Glowing Root|root]] in the secret tunnel. Give it to the [[Heavily Scarred Ent]] to begin the quest.

<spoiler>
He will give you a new [[Glowing Root (Transformed)|glowing root]]. You will then give the new root to the [[Vortex Of Souls]] which will take it and the four mana items and give you a [[Glowing Seed|glowing seed]]. Take the seed back to the scarred ent and give it to him. He will take it and the three clumps and give you the [[Shield Of The Tree]].
</spoiler>

[[Category: Quests In Transfigured Forest]]
[[Category: Hero Quests]]

Mervue Patrol Quest

2012-03-21T19:15:34Z

Spaghetti: added text='' to tags as an example

This is a second in the chain of Patrol Quests, to start it give your [[Badge Of Solace]] from the [[Solace Patrol Quest]] to the mayor of Mervue. You can find him in the inn 2n, 3w, 2n, w from [[banker|Ent banker]].

<spoiler text='Step 1'>You are tasked to find some smugglers and bring the mayor the smuggled loot. Smugglers are on the beach, in the far southeast of the area.</spoiler>
<spoiler text='Step 2'>You will receive an arrest warrant, to be served to a shopkeeper that would usually sell such confiscated loot. This can vary greatly and changes each time - look at the warrant to see which shopkeeper would sell such items.</spoiler>
<spoiler text='Step 3'>When the warrant is served correctly, a short cutscene will play and indicate there are smugglers docked in the harbor.</spoiler>
<spoiler text='Step 4'>Hunt down the pirate captain (usually on the ship n, w from [[Charon]], if not just find his ship), loot the captains crest, and return it to the mayor.</spoiler>

You will receive a free level, the [[Honorary Justice Guard Of Mervue Insignia]], and a [[Badge Of Mervue]], used to start the [[Midgaard Patrol Quest]] at level 34.

[[Category:Quests In Mervue]]
[[Category:Insignia Quests]]

Contributing

2012-03-21T18:30:05Z

Spaghetti: /* Spoilers */

====Getting Started====
The best way to figure out how to edit pages is to look at some examples. Go to a page you like and click edit, it will show you what the editor had to type in to make that page. If you have something to add, but aren't sure you completely understand all the editing features, just do your best. If it doesn't fit some format that we're following we can always change it. Poorly formatted information is better than no information at all. Recently we created some [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] to make it easier to create new pages. The idea is that you can quickly create a new page by copying a [[:Category:Templates|Template]] and filling in the blanks. See [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] for more information.

====Creating A New Article====
One thing that's very important to know is how to create a new article. The best way to do this is to edit an existing page, link to the new article that you want to create, and then follow that link. If you can't think of any pages that would be appropriate to link to your new page, don't worry, there's still two easy ways to create your article. The first is to use the search box to search for your new article. If it doesn't already exist you will be presented with a link to create your new page. If you create a new article in this method, be sure to put it in the appropriate [[Special:Categories|categories]].

The other way to create a new page is to edit any page at all, create the link to your new page, click "Show Preview", and then follow the link to create your new page. Once you're done writing your new page you don't need to permanently save the link you created on the original page.

The reason why there isn't another way to create new pages is because if you don't link the page from any existing pages nobody will be able to get to it. The page becomes what the wiki calls an [[:Special:Lonelypages|"orphaned" page]]. Orphaned pages don't do anything helpful and are not really a part ot the wiki. So in review, figure out what page is going to bring people to your new page, make a link, follow that link, add to the page, categorize the page. That should be the work progression that everybody follows when making a new page.

====Naming Pages====
We have some simple guidelines in place for naming new pages. Omit any articles ("the" "a" "an") at the beginning of a name. Also, capitalize each word in a multi-word title. If you come across any pages that don't follow this naming convention, feel free to move them to the proper name by clicking the "move" button at the top of the page.

====Categories====
All areas, lists of gear or mobs, or other pages which logically "contain" other pages should be created as categories. Category naming follows the same rules as page naming, but use plural nouns when appropriate. [[:Category:Mobs In Midgaard]], [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse]] and [[:Category:Hero Tank Gear]] are some example categories.

To put a page in a category, put <nowiki>[[Category: blah]]</nowiki> anywhere on the page (but preferably at the bottom). More specific categories are better places to put new pages.

To link to a category page without making the page you're editing a part of that category, do something like <nowiki>[[:Category:blah]]</nowiki> <--that. The important part is the colon ( : ) in front of the word Category.

If you think that having your link say "Category:" in front of it is ugly, you can rename the link with a pipe ( | ). For instance, by typing <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]</nowiki> I've made this link to the same page as the one linked above: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]. BTW, link renaming works for all links, not just those to categories.

Recently I discovered a short-cut for renaming categories. If you type in <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|]]</nowiki> the wiki parser will automatically figure out what you mean, and fill in the rest for you. Here's what it looks like: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Gear In Apocalypse]]

====Editing Secrets====
Other than that we don't have any big secrets to making nice Wiki pages. To edit a page, click on the edit link at the top of the page. From there the Wiki software does a good job of explaining the editing features. You can also use simple HTML to format a page if you'd like. If you can't figure something out, try looking at '''http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing.'''

====Your First Contribution====
If starting a new page seems daunting there are pages that currently exist but need fleshing out. Take a look at the [[:Category:Incomplete|Incomplete]] page for those that need a bit more information.

====Spoilers====
If you are adding something which is a spoiler, but which you feel the subject's author won't object to you revealing on the wiki, then you can use the

<big><code><nowiki><spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler></nowiki></code></big> tags, which would produce this: 

<spoiler>My spoiler text.</spoiler>

Or:

<big><code><nowiki><spoiler text='Step 1: Seek the Tall Gnome.'>He can be found in Zin's Oddities. </spoiler></nowiki></code> </big>
<spoiler text='Step 1: Seek the Tall Gnome.'>He can be found in Zin's Oddities. </spoiler>

The tags will happily work inside a table, and text can precede the tag to the left, but due to a hardcoded carriage return, cannot go on the right side of it.

[[Category: Wiki Stuff]]

Contributing

2012-03-21T18:24:03Z

Spaghetti: /* Spoilers */ minor correction to the alternate spoiler tag format

====Getting Started====
The best way to figure out how to edit pages is to look at some examples. Go to a page you like and click edit, it will show you what the editor had to type in to make that page. If you have something to add, but aren't sure you completely understand all the editing features, just do your best. If it doesn't fit some format that we're following we can always change it. Poorly formatted information is better than no information at all. Recently we created some [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] to make it easier to create new pages. The idea is that you can quickly create a new page by copying a [[:Category:Templates|Template]] and filling in the blanks. See [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] for more information.

====Creating A New Article====
One thing that's very important to know is how to create a new article. The best way to do this is to edit an existing page, link to the new article that you want to create, and then follow that link. If you can't think of any pages that would be appropriate to link to your new page, don't worry, there's still two easy ways to create your article. The first is to use the search box to search for your new article. If it doesn't already exist you will be presented with a link to create your new page. If you create a new article in this method, be sure to put it in the appropriate [[Special:Categories|categories]].

The other way to create a new page is to edit any page at all, create the link to your new page, click "Show Preview", and then follow the link to create your new page. Once you're done writing your new page you don't need to permanently save the link you created on the original page.

The reason why there isn't another way to create new pages is because if you don't link the page from any existing pages nobody will be able to get to it. The page becomes what the wiki calls an [[:Special:Lonelypages|"orphaned" page]]. Orphaned pages don't do anything helpful and are not really a part ot the wiki. So in review, figure out what page is going to bring people to your new page, make a link, follow that link, add to the page, categorize the page. That should be the work progression that everybody follows when making a new page.

====Naming Pages====
We have some simple guidelines in place for naming new pages. Omit any articles ("the" "a" "an") at the beginning of a name. Also, capitalize each word in a multi-word title. If you come across any pages that don't follow this naming convention, feel free to move them to the proper name by clicking the "move" button at the top of the page.

====Categories====
All areas, lists of gear or mobs, or other pages which logically "contain" other pages should be created as categories. Category naming follows the same rules as page naming, but use plural nouns when appropriate. [[:Category:Mobs In Midgaard]], [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse]] and [[:Category:Hero Tank Gear]] are some example categories.

To put a page in a category, put <nowiki>[[Category: blah]]</nowiki> anywhere on the page (but preferably at the bottom). More specific categories are better places to put new pages.

To link to a category page without making the page you're editing a part of that category, do something like <nowiki>[[:Category:blah]]</nowiki> <--that. The important part is the colon ( : ) in front of the word Category.

If you think that having your link say "Category:" in front of it is ugly, you can rename the link with a pipe ( | ). For instance, by typing <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]</nowiki> I've made this link to the same page as the one linked above: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]. BTW, link renaming works for all links, not just those to categories.

Recently I discovered a short-cut for renaming categories. If you type in <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|]]</nowiki> the wiki parser will automatically figure out what you mean, and fill in the rest for you. Here's what it looks like: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Gear In Apocalypse]]

====Editing Secrets====
Other than that we don't have any big secrets to making nice Wiki pages. To edit a page, click on the edit link at the top of the page. From there the Wiki software does a good job of explaining the editing features. You can also use simple HTML to format a page if you'd like. If you can't figure something out, try looking at '''http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing.'''

====Your First Contribution====
If starting a new page seems daunting there are pages that currently exist but need fleshing out. Take a look at the [[:Category:Incomplete|Incomplete]] page for those that need a bit more information.

====Spoilers====
If you are adding something which is a spoiler, but which you feel the subject's author won't object to you revealing on the wiki, then you can use the <nowiki><spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler></nowiki> tags, which would produce this:
<spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler>

Or:

<nowiki><spoiler text='Step 1: Seek the Tall Gnome.'> He can be found in Zin's Oddities. </spoiler></nowiki> 
<spoiler text='Step 1: Seek the Tall Gnome.'> He can be found in Zin's Oddities. </spoiler>

The tags will happily work inside a table, and text can precede the tag to the left, but due to a hardcoded carriage return, cannot go on the right side of it.

[[Category: Wiki Stuff]]

Talk:Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-21T18:20:03Z

Spaghetti: /* they don't mind being spoiled */ Fair enough.

== Why remove? ==

why were the details for this quest removed?--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 10:50, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

Because years ago, if I recall correctly, Pulse specifically asked for it not to be spoiled. Of course, totally delinking the page and not even giving hints seems a bit overkill. Not that it matters anymore since once it's on the wiki history, it's there for good. --[[User:Neyne|Neyne]] 14:23, 17 March 2012 (CDT)

: Pages and page history can both be edited and deleted. Editing history files is apparently a little time-consuming, but deleting them and recreating the page is a fairly simple way of removing the offending information from the wiki. The page just needs to be flagged for deletion, and then recreated with a no-spoilers flag, and whatever information Pulse has agreed to.

: I notice that the quest page, left, doesn't tell you how to do the quest. It lists an optimised way of fulfilling the quest requirements and achieving the reward with the least possible effort, and you have to wonder at any ordered list of actions for 'doing a quest' which lists beginning the quest just before the end. Heaven forbid that the quest involve any kind of narrative structure, or that someone who is stuck might want to read down through the quest as far as they have gotten to get a hint/solution to the next part without reading about lots of stuff they haven't done yet. I am tempted to have a go at fixing that page to give an example of what any other adventure game would consider a reasonable spoiler page, but right now I don't even know whether Pulse would prefer it marked for speedy deletion. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

== Why is it still a secret? ==

It's so beyond spoiled and it's not even a very good item for the effort required, I have no idea why it still needs to be pretend-secret. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 04:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

:: What about new players, returning players, players try to find things out for themselves, and those who simply haven't got around to doing this quest yet? The quest is being spoiled - an ongoing thing.

:: What about the builder's wishes? It is difficult to cater to all the different styles of play, and reward them and the effort that entails appropriately when the wiki trivialises puzzles and exploration down to a few blindly followed commands. If you would like the rewards of non-purely-combat quests to reflect the difficulty of mindlessly following wiki instructions, then we won't earn much of a reward. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Until Pulse then gives a green light and lifts the nospoiler delay I suppose it's understandable not to have quest details listed.

:: By "I suppose it is understandable," I am sure what you really meant to say was "Until Pulse gives a green light and lifts the no spoiler flag, we should not reveal the quest's details." --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: However, decategorizing the page is not really needed - it's an informative page that currently contains no spoilers. --[[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 03:05, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

:: Correct at the time of making that post, but just 5 hours later another contributor fully reinstated the quest spoilers.

:: Regarding the creation of no-spoiler-pages; having a page to hold a no-spoiler flag only really works in the instance that the existence of the <thing> is not a secret. Rushing off and immediately making a page for a new area's item is also a spoiler, even if it does not contain the item's details or the means by which it can be acquired.

:: If the purpose of a page is merely to hold the no spoilers flag, then I am all for that page not being categorised. The purpose of the page is not to draw traffic, but to serve to warn those who would create / add to that page, and thus the page doesn't need to show up anywhere else than where it is directly linked; it will be found and read by those it is intended for. Decategorisation works perfectly well for this purpose. If there is only partial limitations, then it makes full sense to categorise that page, but not any daughter pages which delve into things restricted. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

== But Pulse didn't post anything on the wiki...==

There is no "nospoiler delay" beyond 6 months for anything other than this particular quest, and it's not even a very interesting quest. I see no reason to maintain it, especially since the details are available by clicking on "history." --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 04:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::The templates didn't exist when Pulse first issued his Imm note, on the Imm board, sent from his Imm character. Only a couple of builders use them, and they both created their own templates, one is manually removed, the other has a specified time limit. If a builder makes their wishes known via the MUD itself, then that is sufficient. Editor's are responsible for their own contributions and checking properly whether it is okay to post something. How unique or common a flag or the nature of a request has no bearing on its validity.

::The details will only be available in the history until the page is deleted / deleted and recreated, or someone with access edits the history by hand.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Farm from me to disagree on this one, I share Mekrith's opinion - not much sense in maintaining secrecy of already spoiled quests especially after 6 months. -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 09:02, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::See above. Other players, etc. Regardless of players, the builder's desires should be heeded. Regardless of anything at all relating to Avatar, doing a bad thing for a really long time doesn't make it cease to be bad, and sets a precedent/habit for newer MUD additions. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Is there any time or other policy governing when the stuff can be added anyway?==

:However the question of general nature arises - if an author doesn't want elements of his area, quests, maps, etc. displayed on the wiki (map of Halfling Tunnels comes to mind), is there any time or other policy governing when the stuff can be added anyway? -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 09:02, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::: No, and I am surprised you thought there could be. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

:: Regardless of how good or bad the item, or how interesting or not the quest is or any other value type questions - the first question should be ''Is there a request from the author not to publish certain or all any information on the topic?'' If there is, that request '''should''' be logged on the wiki where people who may be thinking about an edit can see it. It should probably be logged on the main page of the area, or in the quests subcategory of that area as well as on a specific (item/quest) page. If there is not any anti-spoiler request listed on the wiki, then it's all to easy for someone to add something, another person another thing, and then before you know it, the information is all there and whatever secret has been revealed. I think it is helpful if the author themselves puts up a notice, or if they would write an in-game note and a helpful person transposes that request here. I think it is also probably very helpful if there is some kind of time limit - from 6 months to 5 years, or whatever - just to give people a framework, but if the author has requested no-spoilers for perpetuity, then that is the author's prerogative. Perhaps in this case, the author could be noted and asked if they would be willing to reconsider their stance or perhaps some hints suggested to them which could be put up with a note that they are author approved. I do not think we should just be going along the path that, "Oh look, it's been a year, we can do what we like now regardless". It is just rude.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 21:50, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

::: Apologies for causing your general reply to fall beneath one specific header. Rather than break up your response, I'm sure you will see this edit and do something about it if it bothers you. I am not sure that I like the idea of a general rule to which specific notices are exceptions. If the MUD adopts a policy of "six months unless the builder expressed a desire to the contrary," everything would go up after six months amid a flurry of "oh, but I didn't know!" Maybe we could require new pages to be flagged with correct information regarding the builder's wishes - that way only the page creator needs to check, and frees up later contributors to add and edit bits and bobs without so much worry. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Priviliged Information==

I put this on so I'll give my opinion. I remember that request for no spoilage but did intentionally due to how people would not help anyone trying to figure this out. After many attempts to get the details or even hints on how to solve it I was getting little help. After one person gave me "help" that made me lose the clumps (not sure if intentional or not) I got so frustrated I put it up after I figured it out. Avatar has always been promoted as community and this wiki is an outreach of that. I saw it being treated as privileged information and decided it is just another quest. --[[User:Ylem|Ylem]] 12:37, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

==Use of the Spoiler Function==

Actually, far more generally - and this page is probably not the right place to have this discussion. I guess the quest category? But it seems topical here right now... - it would be nice if the spoiler function was used more on quests to create two sets of information on quest pages. I have seen this function around a couple of times, but cannot actually remember where it is, and I'm the type of person who tends to learn how to edit the wiki from other pages, so the more pages with a certain function, the easier it is to find an example and copy it. Having two sections on a quest page for when it is permissable to put up details - one for general hints, and one for more detailed things like directions, or exact items, etc... would be really cool. Sometimes people just want a bit of a hint, but do not want the whole thing revealed - but once it is laid out infront of you it is a bit hard not to look.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 21:50, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

: I found the spoiler function - which seems nice and easy to use. Have edited the page somewhat to show first glance is just hints, and three sections of spoilers you can reveal if you feel the desire or get stuck. I think it would be cool if we did something like this more widely, even on pretty simple or low mort quest, just to give new players a chance to find out things on their own, but still get a hint if they get stuck, or still to get a starting point to the quest.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 22:10, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

==they don't mind being spoiled==

: I didn't really want to discuss this point here as I am fairly sure this page is going to be deleted, but I suppose that parts of this talk page can be moved to another, more appropriate talk page later. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

If people are on the wiki, presumably they don't mind being spoiled. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Translation - all readers of this wiki are '''not''' merely:
:* here to read help files or access other in-game information
:* here to look at maps for areas that they have already paper maps for, but don't have access to them right now
:* taking part in discussions
:* reading up on styles of play or other advice
:* any number of other reasons for coming here...
: No, they are all seeking the full, complete solution to whatever quests and mysteries the MUD possesses and will not be at all annoyed if that is spoilt for them. I disagree.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

It can be used sparingly, --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: And never is. Besides which, spoiling a quest for a player doesn't even require them to come to the wiki for the wiki to spoil it for them. I could direct you to an interesting paper on the nature of "effort" in a virtual world, but to save you a long and mostly boring read, essentially, users have an extremely strong tendency toward taking the easiest possible route to doing something. I have to accept that as a part of human nature, or at least as part of our current perception of the value of effort expended virtually, so hoping that the majority of players will act against their nature seems unlikely to work.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

but the whole argument that the wiki is ruining the game for new players is ridiculous.... --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: The argument isn't as simple and extreme as you state. It is not hard to see the apparent effects of the wiki if you watch the players. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

the game doesn't force anyone to read the wiki, it doesn't even tell new players that it exists. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: If I log on with a new mortal, with brackets around my name, and feigning youth and ignorance ask to be directed to Sol, when I am in the meadow, do you think a nice player is going to show me around, or give me some general, in-game walking directions, or even tell me about the little sign-post-rocks scattered around like the one at Nom? No... I'll either receive a speed walk line, like "5W1N3W..." or, as is almost always the case, I'll be told to go and look it up on the wiki at ht<big></big>tp://avatar.melanarchy.info/

: Even when super-helpful, low-mort friendly players are online to guide, help and nurture new players, it only takes a careless moment for another player to foist the URL onto NCHAT before seeing if someone else intends to give proper assistance, and so, regardless, most new players learn about the existence of the wiki in-game, from people who think it does not adversely affect them in the slightest and don't have any time to spare for low-morts, and do so really soon after they start playing.

: Also, you seem to be assuming that a player has to read the spoiler here, first hand, for something to be spoiled for them. Avatar is a social game, and as in real life, dodging spoilers transmitted through conversation or the in-game activity of friends who themselves only learnt about the quest/etc. via a wiki spoiler means that they don't have to come here for a quest to be spoiled for them. Of course, we need to consider the indirect effects of the wiki, too.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

The idea that anyone is wandering into "Shield of the Tree" entry on wiki and being tragically spoiled on a several-year-old questline for a shield --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: A lot of the comments here apply to the wiki generally. This is something of a test case. If you aren't going to respect Pulse's wishes for a quest that he must have put vast amounts of effort into making, then clearly nothing else on this wiki is going to be safe. The age of the quest is irrelevent as the MUD has a rolling, diverse player base. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

which is just a mana upgrade that basically nobody wants, is, so beyond proposterous.... --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

:By "basically nobody," do you mean "people who play classes I don't tend to play, and/or use playing styles that I don't favour," and that those people, at the end of the day, don't actually count in your assessment of whether "anyone" wants this gear? Personally, I see great utility in the item, and I know of players who aspire to, or do, own it.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

the only thing more ridiculous I can imagine is the amount of text you're expending on the subject. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Actually, I have to admit that I was surprised at the size of my replies on this talk page. Perhaps I am ridiculous? --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

Honestly, the wiki is for active players that want to contribute and share their knowledge. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: I agree. What we are debating is whether our splendid players should enjoy the freedom to share absolutely all the secrets and knowledge about the MUD, without any kind of restriction or "interference" from those who waste months and months of their lives trying to add stuff to it. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

If your opinion is that wiki is destructive to player experience, the not-wiki is only an alt-f4 away. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: I haven't expressed such an opinion, if that is what you are wondering. The relationship between the MUD and the wiki is complicated, and naturally has its good-points and bad-points. The wiki is very flexible, and has the ability to be many things, not all of them good. Right now, I'm trying to address something that I believe is, or could become, a bad point - the refusal to abide requests that certain information be withheld. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

The whole issue seems to be getting away from the central point - the builder requested that information NOT go up on the wiki. There was no time limit stated. Unless someone has had official word from Pulse himself, the information should not have been posted up at all. It does not matter whether or not this item is a T0 piece of lord gear which was put in last week, or a statless piece of gear from the meadow. If the builder has requested that information does not go up, it should be respected. The wiki is fabulous resource, but it should not ride roughshod over the author's wishes about something they have created themselves for the benfit of all under the aegis of making information public to all. How much information we display on quests, and the use of spoilers to allow partial hints to be gained for those who are seeking a bit of help but don't want the whole quest revealed, or anything else is another issue. Given that this page can be deleted, it probably should be - and then recreated with a banner up saying no spoilers.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 12:59, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

: Fair enough. Flagged for deletion with intent to recreate page with no-spoiler banner, no categories inclusion, and a blank history. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 13:20, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

==The Wiki Drives Us Forward==
it's a dream to think we can go back to a time before the wiki. some people now can be new and read through all the signs that used to be the only way to find things, and some can do the wiki, and some can do both. but we can't go back. as it is now the wiki drives us forward. the idea that people should not tell new players about the wiki seems unrealistic to me.--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 00:47, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

Your point is very reasonable. I am not averse to the wiki as a whole - there is a lot of good information here for newer players. I was responding to the assertion that as newbies do not come to the wiki we can edit without any regard for them, though I do feel the manner and timing of their introduction to the wiki could be improved.
--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

==Spoiler Flag==

I reinstated the spoiler flag which shouldn't have been taken down. Maybe someone could contact Pulse and see if the spoilers should be deleted/edited, or the flag removed, etc. If this isn't resolved, I shall flag this page for deletion, in line with the original statement. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:34, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-21T18:18:26Z

Spaghetti: flagged delete for recreation with no-spoilers banner and blank history.

{{Delete}}
{{nospoilers|who= Pulse}}

The [[Shield Of The Tree]] is a difficult quest in the Transfigured Forest. It is very hard to solo parts of the quest and will require several players or several alts with different alignments/fighting styles.

You will need eight different items before you are ready to obtain the shield.

Three can be found scattered around the area, in no fixed location.

<spoiler>
Retrieve the following items:
* [[Clump Of Stone|clump of stone]]
* [[Clump Of Leaves|clump of leaves]]
* [[Clump Of Ice|clump of ice]]
These are scattered around on several mobs. The ice is in the tree on a [[Giant Creature Of Ice]], the leaves on a [[Giant-Shaped Swirl Of Leaves]], and the stone on a [[Trunk Of Stone]] near the entrance.
</spoiler>

You will also need four items which will generally require four different characters to gain.

<spoiler>
You will also need to get one of each of the mana items:
* [[Gnarled Branch Of Age]]
* [[Swirl Of Fumes]]
* [[Grey Orb Of Stone]]
* [[Crackling Sphere Of Lightning]]
Since each of these require a certain type of player to get you will need a mix of good/melee, good/caster, evil/melee, evil/caster.
</spoiler>

After you have all these items get started by getting the [[Glowing Root|root]] in the secret tunnel. Give it to the [[Heavily Scarred Ent]] to begin the quest.

<spoiler>
He will give you a new [[Glowing Root (Transformed)|glowing root]]. You will then give the new root to the [[Vortex Of Souls]] which will take it and the four mana items and give you a [[Glowing Seed|glowing seed]]. Take the seed back to the scarred ent and give it to him. He will take it and the three clumps and give you the [[Shield Of The Tree]].
</spoiler>

[[Category: Quests In Transfigured Forest]]
[[Category: Hero Quests]]

Talk:Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-21T14:57:14Z

Spaghetti: /* they don't mind being spoiled */

== Why remove? ==

why were the details for this quest removed?--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 10:50, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

Because years ago, if I recall correctly, Pulse specifically asked for it not to be spoiled. Of course, totally delinking the page and not even giving hints seems a bit overkill. Not that it matters anymore since once it's on the wiki history, it's there for good. --[[User:Neyne|Neyne]] 14:23, 17 March 2012 (CDT)

: Pages and page history can both be edited and deleted. Editing history files is apparently a little time-consuming, but deleting them and recreating the page is a fairly simple way of removing the offending information from the wiki. The page just needs to be flagged for deletion, and then recreated with a no-spoilers flag, and whatever information Pulse has agreed to.

: I notice that the quest page, left, doesn't tell you how to do the quest. It lists an optimised way of fulfilling the quest requirements and achieving the reward with the least possible effort, and you have to wonder at any ordered list of actions for 'doing a quest' which lists beginning the quest just before the end. Heaven forbid that the quest involve any kind of narrative structure, or that someone who is stuck might want to read down through the quest as far as they have gotten to get a hint/solution to the next part without reading about lots of stuff they haven't done yet. I am tempted to have a go at fixing that page to give an example of what any other adventure game would consider a reasonable spoiler page, but right now I don't even know whether Pulse would prefer it marked for speedy deletion. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

== Why is it still a secret? ==

It's so beyond spoiled and it's not even a very good item for the effort required, I have no idea why it still needs to be pretend-secret. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 04:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

:: What about new players, returning players, players try to find things out for themselves, and those who simply haven't got around to doing this quest yet? The quest is being spoiled - an ongoing thing.

:: What about the builder's wishes? It is difficult to cater to all the different styles of play, and reward them and the effort that entails appropriately when the wiki trivialises puzzles and exploration down to a few blindly followed commands. If you would like the rewards of non-purely-combat quests to reflect the difficulty of mindlessly following wiki instructions, then we won't earn much of a reward. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Until Pulse then gives a green light and lifts the nospoiler delay I suppose it's understandable not to have quest details listed.

:: By "I suppose it is understandable," I am sure what you really meant to say was "Until Pulse gives a green light and lifts the no spoiler flag, we should not reveal the quest's details." --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: However, decategorizing the page is not really needed - it's an informative page that currently contains no spoilers. --[[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 03:05, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

:: Correct at the time of making that post, but just 5 hours later another contributor fully reinstated the quest spoilers.

:: Regarding the creation of no-spoiler-pages; having a page to hold a no-spoiler flag only really works in the instance that the existence of the <thing> is not a secret. Rushing off and immediately making a page for a new area's item is also a spoiler, even if it does not contain the item's details or the means by which it can be acquired.

:: If the purpose of a page is merely to hold the no spoilers flag, then I am all for that page not being categorised. The purpose of the page is not to draw traffic, but to serve to warn those who would create / add to that page, and thus the page doesn't need to show up anywhere else than where it is directly linked; it will be found and read by those it is intended for. Decategorisation works perfectly well for this purpose. If there is only partial limitations, then it makes full sense to categorise that page, but not any daughter pages which delve into things restricted. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

== But Pulse didn't post anything on the wiki...==

There is no "nospoiler delay" beyond 6 months for anything other than this particular quest, and it's not even a very interesting quest. I see no reason to maintain it, especially since the details are available by clicking on "history." --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 04:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::The templates didn't exist when Pulse first issued his Imm note, on the Imm board, sent from his Imm character. Only a couple of builders use them, and they both created their own templates, one is manually removed, the other has a specified time limit. If a builder makes their wishes known via the MUD itself, then that is sufficient. Editor's are responsible for their own contributions and checking properly whether it is okay to post something. How unique or common a flag or the nature of a request has no bearing on its validity.

::The details will only be available in the history until the page is deleted / deleted and recreated, or someone with access edits the history by hand.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Farm from me to disagree on this one, I share Mekrith's opinion - not much sense in maintaining secrecy of already spoiled quests especially after 6 months. -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 09:02, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::See above. Other players, etc. Regardless of players, the builder's desires should be heeded. Regardless of anything at all relating to Avatar, doing a bad thing for a really long time doesn't make it cease to be bad, and sets a precedent/habit for newer MUD additions. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Is there any time or other policy governing when the stuff can be added anyway?==

:However the question of general nature arises - if an author doesn't want elements of his area, quests, maps, etc. displayed on the wiki (map of Halfling Tunnels comes to mind), is there any time or other policy governing when the stuff can be added anyway? -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 09:02, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::: No, and I am surprised you thought there could be. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

:: Regardless of how good or bad the item, or how interesting or not the quest is or any other value type questions - the first question should be ''Is there a request from the author not to publish certain or all any information on the topic?'' If there is, that request '''should''' be logged on the wiki where people who may be thinking about an edit can see it. It should probably be logged on the main page of the area, or in the quests subcategory of that area as well as on a specific (item/quest) page. If there is not any anti-spoiler request listed on the wiki, then it's all to easy for someone to add something, another person another thing, and then before you know it, the information is all there and whatever secret has been revealed. I think it is helpful if the author themselves puts up a notice, or if they would write an in-game note and a helpful person transposes that request here. I think it is also probably very helpful if there is some kind of time limit - from 6 months to 5 years, or whatever - just to give people a framework, but if the author has requested no-spoilers for perpetuity, then that is the author's prerogative. Perhaps in this case, the author could be noted and asked if they would be willing to reconsider their stance or perhaps some hints suggested to them which could be put up with a note that they are author approved. I do not think we should just be going along the path that, "Oh look, it's been a year, we can do what we like now regardless". It is just rude.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 21:50, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

::: Apologies for causing your general reply to fall beneath one specific header. Rather than break up your response, I'm sure you will see this edit and do something about it if it bothers you. I am not sure that I like the idea of a general rule to which specific notices are exceptions. If the MUD adopts a policy of "six months unless the builder expressed a desire to the contrary," everything would go up after six months amid a flurry of "oh, but I didn't know!" Maybe we could require new pages to be flagged with correct information regarding the builder's wishes - that way only the page creator needs to check, and frees up later contributors to add and edit bits and bobs without so much worry. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Priviliged Information==

I put this on so I'll give my opinion. I remember that request for no spoilage but did intentionally due to how people would not help anyone trying to figure this out. After many attempts to get the details or even hints on how to solve it I was getting little help. After one person gave me "help" that made me lose the clumps (not sure if intentional or not) I got so frustrated I put it up after I figured it out. Avatar has always been promoted as community and this wiki is an outreach of that. I saw it being treated as privileged information and decided it is just another quest. --[[User:Ylem|Ylem]] 12:37, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

==Use of the Spoiler Function==

Actually, far more generally - and this page is probably not the right place to have this discussion. I guess the quest category? But it seems topical here right now... - it would be nice if the spoiler function was used more on quests to create two sets of information on quest pages. I have seen this function around a couple of times, but cannot actually remember where it is, and I'm the type of person who tends to learn how to edit the wiki from other pages, so the more pages with a certain function, the easier it is to find an example and copy it. Having two sections on a quest page for when it is permissable to put up details - one for general hints, and one for more detailed things like directions, or exact items, etc... would be really cool. Sometimes people just want a bit of a hint, but do not want the whole thing revealed - but once it is laid out infront of you it is a bit hard not to look.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 21:50, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

: I found the spoiler function - which seems nice and easy to use. Have edited the page somewhat to show first glance is just hints, and three sections of spoilers you can reveal if you feel the desire or get stuck. I think it would be cool if we did something like this more widely, even on pretty simple or low mort quest, just to give new players a chance to find out things on their own, but still get a hint if they get stuck, or still to get a starting point to the quest.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 22:10, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

==they don't mind being spoiled==

: I didn't really want to discuss this point here as I am fairly sure this page is going to be deleted, but I suppose that parts of this talk page can be moved to another, more appropriate talk page later. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

If people are on the wiki, presumably they don't mind being spoiled. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Translation - all readers of this wiki are '''not''' merely:
:* here to read help files or access other in-game information
:* here to look at maps for areas that they have already paper maps for, but don't have access to them right now
:* taking part in discussions
:* reading up on styles of play or other advice
:* any number of other reasons for coming here...
: No, they are all seeking the full, complete solution to whatever quests and mysteries the MUD possesses and will not be at all annoyed if that is spoilt for them. I disagree.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

It can be used sparingly, --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: And never is. Besides which, spoiling a quest for a player doesn't even require them to come to the wiki for the wiki to spoil it for them. I could direct you to an interesting paper on the nature of "effort" in a virtual world, but to save you a long and mostly boring read, essentially, users have an extremely strong tendency toward taking the easiest possible route to doing something. I have to accept that as a part of human nature, or at least as part of our current perception of the value of effort expended virtually, so hoping that the majority of players will act against their nature seems unlikely to work.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

but the whole argument that the wiki is ruining the game for new players is ridiculous.... --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: The argument isn't as simple and extreme as you state. It is not hard to see the apparent effects of the wiki if you watch the players. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

the game doesn't force anyone to read the wiki, it doesn't even tell new players that it exists. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: If I log on with a new mortal, with brackets around my name, and feigning youth and ignorance ask to be directed to Sol, when I am in the meadow, do you think a nice player is going to show me around, or give me some general, in-game walking directions, or even tell me about the little sign-post-rocks scattered around like the one at Nom? No... I'll either receive a speed walk line, like "5W1N3W..." or, as is almost always the case, I'll be told to go and look it up on the wiki at ht<big></big>tp://avatar.melanarchy.info/

: Even when super-helpful, low-mort friendly players are online to guide, help and nurture new players, it only takes a careless moment for another player to foist the URL onto NCHAT before seeing if someone else intends to give proper assistance, and so, regardless, most new players learn about the existence of the wiki in-game, from people who think it does not adversely affect them in the slightest and don't have any time to spare for low-morts, and do so really soon after they start playing.

: Also, you seem to be assuming that a player has to read the spoiler here, first hand, for something to be spoiled for them. Avatar is a social game, and as in real life, dodging spoilers transmitted through conversation or the in-game activity of friends who themselves only learnt about the quest/etc. via a wiki spoiler means that they don't have to come here for a quest to be spoiled for them. Of course, we need to consider the indirect effects of the wiki, too.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

The idea that anyone is wandering into "Shield of the Tree" entry on wiki and being tragically spoiled on a several-year-old questline for a shield --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: A lot of the comments here apply to the wiki generally. This is something of a test case. If you aren't going to respect Pulse's wishes for a quest that he must have put vast amounts of effort into making, then clearly nothing else on this wiki is going to be safe. The age of the quest is irrelevent as the MUD has a rolling, diverse player base. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

which is just a mana upgrade that basically nobody wants, is, so beyond proposterous.... --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

:By "basically nobody," do you mean "people who play classes I don't tend to play, and/or use playing styles that I don't favour," and that those people, at the end of the day, don't actually count in your assessment of whether "anyone" wants this gear? Personally, I see great utility in the item, and I know of players who aspire to, or do, own it.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

the only thing more ridiculous I can imagine is the amount of text you're expending on the subject. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Actually, I have to admit that I was surprised at the size of my replies on this talk page. Perhaps I am ridiculous? --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

Honestly, the wiki is for active players that want to contribute and share their knowledge. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: I agree. What we are debating is whether our splendid players should enjoy the freedom to share absolutely all the secrets and knowledge about the MUD, without any kind of restriction or "interference" from those who waste months and months of their lives trying to add stuff to it. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

If your opinion is that wiki is destructive to player experience, the not-wiki is only an alt-f4 away. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 23:58, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: I haven't expressed such an opinion, if that is what you are wondering. The relationship between the MUD and the wiki is complicated, and naturally has its good-points and bad-points. The wiki is very flexible, and has the ability to be many things, not all of them good. Right now, I'm trying to address something that I believe is, or could become, a bad point - the refusal to abide requests that certain information be withheld. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

==The Wiki Drives Us Forward==
it's a dream to think we can go back to a time before the wiki. some people now can be new and read through all the signs that used to be the only way to find things, and some can do the wiki, and some can do both. but we can't go back. as it is now the wiki drives us forward. the idea that people should not tell new players about the wiki seems unrealistic to me.--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 00:47, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

Your point is very reasonable. I am not averse to the wiki as a whole - there is a lot of good information here for newer players. I was responding to the assertion that as newbies do not come to the wiki we can edit without any regard for them, though I do feel the manner and timing of their introduction to the wiki could be improved.
--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 09:57, 21 March 2012 (CDT)

==Spoiler Flag==

I reinstated the spoiler flag which shouldn't have been taken down. Maybe someone could contact Pulse and see if the spoilers should be deleted/edited, or the flag removed, etc. If this isn't resolved, I shall flag this page for deletion, in line with the original statement. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:34, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Contributing

2012-03-21T06:01:33Z

Spaghetti: /* Spoilers */

====Getting Started====
The best way to figure out how to edit pages is to look at some examples. Go to a page you like and click edit, it will show you what the editor had to type in to make that page. If you have something to add, but aren't sure you completely understand all the editing features, just do your best. If it doesn't fit some format that we're following we can always change it. Poorly formatted information is better than no information at all. Recently we created some [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] to make it easier to create new pages. The idea is that you can quickly create a new page by copying a [[:Category:Templates|Template]] and filling in the blanks. See [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] for more information.

====Creating A New Article====
One thing that's very important to know is how to create a new article. The best way to do this is to edit an existing page, link to the new article that you want to create, and then follow that link. If you can't think of any pages that would be appropriate to link to your new page, don't worry, there's still two easy ways to create your article. The first is to use the search box to search for your new article. If it doesn't already exist you will be presented with a link to create your new page. If you create a new article in this method, be sure to put it in the appropriate [[Special:Categories|categories]].

The other way to create a new page is to edit any page at all, create the link to your new page, click "Show Preview", and then follow the link to create your new page. Once you're done writing your new page you don't need to permanently save the link you created on the original page.

The reason why there isn't another way to create new pages is because if you don't link the page from any existing pages nobody will be able to get to it. The page becomes what the wiki calls an [[:Special:Lonelypages|"orphaned" page]]. Orphaned pages don't do anything helpful and are not really a part ot the wiki. So in review, figure out what page is going to bring people to your new page, make a link, follow that link, add to the page, categorize the page. That should be the work progression that everybody follows when making a new page.

====Naming Pages====
We have some simple guidelines in place for naming new pages. Omit any articles ("the" "a" "an") at the beginning of a name. Also, capitalize each word in a multi-word title. If you come across any pages that don't follow this naming convention, feel free to move them to the proper name by clicking the "move" button at the top of the page.

====Categories====
All areas, lists of gear or mobs, or other pages which logically "contain" other pages should be created as categories. Category naming follows the same rules as page naming, but use plural nouns when appropriate. [[:Category:Mobs In Midgaard]], [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse]] and [[:Category:Hero Tank Gear]] are some example categories.

To put a page in a category, put <nowiki>[[Category: blah]]</nowiki> anywhere on the page (but preferably at the bottom). More specific categories are better places to put new pages.

To link to a category page without making the page you're editing a part of that category, do something like <nowiki>[[:Category:blah]]</nowiki> <--that. The important part is the colon ( : ) in front of the word Category.

If you think that having your link say "Category:" in front of it is ugly, you can rename the link with a pipe ( | ). For instance, by typing <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]</nowiki> I've made this link to the same page as the one linked above: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]. BTW, link renaming works for all links, not just those to categories.

Recently I discovered a short-cut for renaming categories. If you type in <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|]]</nowiki> the wiki parser will automatically figure out what you mean, and fill in the rest for you. Here's what it looks like: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Gear In Apocalypse]]

====Editing Secrets====
Other than that we don't have any big secrets to making nice Wiki pages. To edit a page, click on the edit link at the top of the page. From there the Wiki software does a good job of explaining the editing features. You can also use simple HTML to format a page if you'd like. If you can't figure something out, try looking at '''http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing.'''

====Your First Contribution====
If starting a new page seems daunting there are pages that currently exist but need fleshing out. Take a look at the [[:Category:Incomplete|Incomplete]] page for those that need a bit more information.

====Spoilers====
If you are adding something which is a spoiler, but which you feel the subject's author won't object to you revealing on the wiki, then you can use the <nowiki><spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler></nowiki> tags, which would produce this:
<spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler>

Or:

<nowiki><spoiler text='Step 1: Seek the Tall Gnome.'> He can be found in Zin's Oddities. </spoiler></nowiki>
<spoiler text='Step 1: Seek the Tall Gnome.'> He can be found in Zin's Oddities. </spoiler>

The tags will happily work inside a table, and text can precede the tag to the left, but due to a hardcoded carriage return, cannot go on the right side of it.

[[Category: Wiki Stuff]]

Talk:Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-21T04:17:54Z

Spaghetti: /* Use of the Spoiler Function */ Why do players use the wiki? - discussion

== Why remove? ==

why were the details for this quest removed?--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 10:50, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

Because years ago, if I recall correctly, Pulse specifically asked for it not to be spoiled. Of course, totally delinking the page and not even giving hints seems a bit overkill. Not that it matters anymore since once it's on the wiki history, it's there for good. --[[User:Neyne|Neyne]] 14:23, 17 March 2012 (CDT)

: Pages and page history can both be edited and deleted. Editing history files is apparently a little time-consuming, but deleting them and recreating the page is a fairly simple way of removing the offending information from the wiki. The page just needs to be flagged for deletion, and then recreated with a no-spoilers flag, and whatever information Pulse has agreed to.

: I notice that the quest page, left, doesn't tell you how to do the quest. It lists an optimised way of fulfilling the quest requirements and achieving the reward with the least possible effort, and you have to wonder at any ordered list of actions for 'doing a quest' which lists beginning the quest just before the end. Heaven forbid that the quest involve any kind of narrative structure, or that someone who is stuck might want to read down through the quest as far as they have gotten to get a hint/solution to the next part without reading about lots of stuff they haven't done yet. I am tempted to have a go at fixing that page to give an example of what any other adventure game would consider a reasonable spoiler page, but right now I don't even know whether Pulse would prefer it marked for speedy deletion. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

== Why is it still a secret? ==

It's so beyond spoiled and it's not even a very good item for the effort required, I have no idea why it still needs to be pretend-secret. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 04:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

:: What about new players, returning players, players try to find things out for themselves, and those who simply haven't got around to doing this quest yet? The quest is being spoiled - an ongoing thing.

:: What about the builder's wishes? It is difficult to cater to all the different styles of play, and reward them and the effort that entails appropriately when the wiki trivialises puzzles and exploration down to a few blindly followed commands. If you would like the rewards of non-purely-combat quests to reflect the difficulty of mindlessly following wiki instructions, then we won't earn much of a reward. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Until Pulse then gives a green light and lifts the nospoiler delay I suppose it's understandable not to have quest details listed.

:: By "I suppose it is understandable," I am sure what you really meant to say was "Until Pulse gives a green light and lifts the no spoiler flag, we should not reveal the quest's details." --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: However, decategorizing the page is not really needed - it's an informative page that currently contains no spoilers. --[[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 03:05, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

:: Correct at the time of making that post, but just 5 hours later another contributor fully reinstated the quest spoilers.

:: Regarding the creation of no-spoiler-pages; having a page to hold a no-spoiler flag only really works in the instance that the existence of the <thing> is not a secret. Rushing off and immediately making a page for a new area's item is also a spoiler, even if it does not contain the item's details or the means by which it can be acquired.

:: If the purpose of a page is merely to hold the no spoilers flag, then I am all for that page not being categorised. The purpose of the page is not to draw traffic, but to serve to warn those who would create / add to that page, and thus the page doesn't need to show up anywhere else than where it is directly linked; it will be found and read by those it is intended for. Decategorisation works perfectly well for this purpose. If there is only partial limitations, then it makes full sense to categorise that page, but not any daughter pages which delve into things restricted. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

== But Pulse didn't post anything on the wiki...==

There is no "nospoiler delay" beyond 6 months for anything other than this particular quest, and it's not even a very interesting quest. I see no reason to maintain it, especially since the details are available by clicking on "history." --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 04:53, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::The templates didn't exist when Pulse first issued his Imm note, on the Imm board, sent from his Imm character. Only a couple of builders use them, and they both created their own templates, one is manually removed, the other has a specified time limit. If a builder makes their wishes known via the MUD itself, then that is sufficient. Editor's are responsible for their own contributions and checking properly whether it is okay to post something. How unique or common a flag or the nature of a request has no bearing on its validity.

::The details will only be available in the history until the page is deleted / deleted and recreated, or someone with access edits the history by hand.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Farm from me to disagree on this one, I share Mekrith's opinion - not much sense in maintaining secrecy of already spoiled quests especially after 6 months. -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 09:02, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::See above. Other players, etc. Regardless of players, the builder's desires should be heeded. Regardless of anything at all relating to Avatar, doing a bad thing for a really long time doesn't make it cease to be bad, and sets a precedent/habit for newer MUD additions. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Is there any time or other policy governing when the stuff can be added anyway?==

:However the question of general nature arises - if an author doesn't want elements of his area, quests, maps, etc. displayed on the wiki (map of Halfling Tunnels comes to mind), is there any time or other policy governing when the stuff can be added anyway? -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 09:02, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

::: No, and I am surprised you thought there could be. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

:: Regardless of how good or bad the item, or how interesting or not the quest is or any other value type questions - the first question should be ''Is there a request from the author not to publish certain or all any information on the topic?'' If there is, that request '''should''' be logged on the wiki where people who may be thinking about an edit can see it. It should probably be logged on the main page of the area, or in the quests subcategory of that area as well as on a specific (item/quest) page. If there is not any anti-spoiler request listed on the wiki, then it's all to easy for someone to add something, another person another thing, and then before you know it, the information is all there and whatever secret has been revealed. I think it is helpful if the author themselves puts up a notice, or if they would write an in-game note and a helpful person transposes that request here. I think it is also probably very helpful if there is some kind of time limit - from 6 months to 5 years, or whatever - just to give people a framework, but if the author has requested no-spoilers for perpetuity, then that is the author's prerogative. Perhaps in this case, the author could be noted and asked if they would be willing to reconsider their stance or perhaps some hints suggested to them which could be put up with a note that they are author approved. I do not think we should just be going along the path that, "Oh look, it's been a year, we can do what we like now regardless". It is just rude.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 21:50, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

::: Apologies for causing your general reply to fall beneath one specific header. Rather than break up your response, I'm sure you will see this edit and do something about it if it bothers you. I am not sure that I like the idea of a general rule to which specific notices are exceptions. If the MUD adopts a policy of "six months unless the builder expressed a desire to the contrary," everything would go up after six months amid a flurry of "oh, but I didn't know!" Maybe we could require new pages to be flagged with correct information regarding the builder's wishes - that way only the page creator needs to check, and frees up later contributors to add and edit bits and bobs without so much worry. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:09, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Priviliged Information==

I put this on so I'll give my opinion. I remember that request for no spoilage but did intentionally due to how people would not help anyone trying to figure this out. After many attempts to get the details or even hints on how to solve it I was getting little help. After one person gave me "help" that made me lose the clumps (not sure if intentional or not) I got so frustrated I put it up after I figured it out. Avatar has always been promoted as community and this wiki is an outreach of that. I saw it being treated as privileged information and decided it is just another quest. --[[User:Ylem|Ylem]] 12:37, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

==Use of the Spoiler Function==

Actually, far more generally - and this page is probably not the right place to have this discussion. I guess the quest category? But it seems topical here right now... - it would be nice if the spoiler function was used more on quests to create two sets of information on quest pages. I have seen this function around a couple of times, but cannot actually remember where it is, and I'm the type of person who tends to learn how to edit the wiki from other pages, so the more pages with a certain function, the easier it is to find an example and copy it. Having two sections on a quest page for when it is permissable to put up details - one for general hints, and one for more detailed things like directions, or exact items, etc... would be really cool. Sometimes people just want a bit of a hint, but do not want the whole thing revealed - but once it is laid out infront of you it is a bit hard not to look.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 21:50, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

: I found the spoiler function - which seems nice and easy to use. Have edited the page somewhat to show first glance is just hints, and three sections of spoilers you can reveal if you feel the desire or get stuck. I think it would be cool if we did something like this more widely, even on pretty simple or low mort quest, just to give new players a chance to find out things on their own, but still get a hint if they get stuck, or still to get a starting point to the quest.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 22:10, 18 March 2012 (CDT)

==they don't mind being spoiled==

: I didn't really want to discuss this point here as I am fairly sure this page is going to be deleted, but I suppose that parts of this talk page can be moved to another, more appropriate talk page later. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

If people are on the wiki, presumably they don't mind being spoiled. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: Translation - all readers of this wiki are '''not''' merely:
:* here to read help files or access other in-game information
:* here to look at maps for areas that they have already paper maps for, but don't have access to them right now
:* taking part in discussions
:* reading up on styles of play or other advice
:* any number of other reasons for coming here...
: No, they are all seeking the full, complete solution to whatever quests and mysteries the MUD possesses and will not be at all annoyed if that is spoilt for them. I disagree.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

It can be used sparingly, --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: And never is. Besides which, spoiling a quest for a player doesn't even require them to come to the wiki for the wiki to spoil it for them. I could direct you to an interesting paper on the nature of "effort" in a virtual world, but to save you a long and mostly boring read, essentially, users have an extremely strong tendency toward taking the easiest possible route to doing something. I have to accept that as a part of human nature, or at least as part of our current perception of the value of effort expended virtually, so hoping that the majority of players will act against their nature seems unlikely to work.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

but the whole argument that the wiki is ruining the game for new players is ridiculous.... --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: The argument isn't as simple and extreme as you state. It is not hard to see the apparent effects of the wiki if you watch the players. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

the game doesn't force anyone to read the wiki, it doesn't even tell new players that it exists. --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 22:01, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

: If I log on with a new mortal, with brackets around my name, and feigning youth and ignorance ask to be directed to Sol, when I am in the meadow, do you think a nice player is going to show me around, or give me some general, in-game walking directions, or even tell me about the little sign-post-rocks scattered around like the one at Nom? No... I'll either receive a speed walk line, like "5W1N3W..." or, as is almost always the case, I'll be told to go and look it up on the wiki at ht<big></big>tp://avatar.melanarchy.info/

: Even when super-helpful, low-mort friendly players are online to guide, help and nurture new players, it only takes a careless moment for another player to foist the URL onto NCHAT before seeing if someone else intends to give proper assistance, and so, regardless, most new players learn about the existence of the wiki in-game, from people who think it does not adversely affect them in the slightest and don't have any time to spare for low-morts, and do so really soon after they start playing.

: Also, you seem to be assuming that a player has to read the spoiler here, first hand, for something to be spoiled for them. Avatar is a social game, and as in real life, dodging spoilers transmitted through conversation or the in-game activity of friends who themselves only learnt about the quest/etc. via a wiki spoiler means that they don't have to come here for a quest to be spoiled for them. Of course, we need to consider the indirect effects of the wiki, too.--[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 23:17, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

==Spoiler Flag==

I reinstated the spoiler flag which shouldn't have been taken down. Maybe someone could contact Pulse and see if the spoilers should be deleted/edited, or the flag removed, etc. If this isn't resolved, I shall flag this page for deletion, in line with the original statement. --[[User:Spaghetti|Spaghetti]] 12:34, 20 March 2012 (CDT)

Contributing

2012-03-20T18:37:06Z

Spaghetti: Made the page easier to read via subheadings and added spoilers tag example

====Getting Started====
The best way to figure out how to edit pages is to look at some examples. Go to a page you like and click edit, it will show you what the editor had to type in to make that page. If you have something to add, but aren't sure you completely understand all the editing features, just do your best. If it doesn't fit some format that we're following we can always change it. Poorly formatted information is better than no information at all. Recently we created some [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] to make it easier to create new pages. The idea is that you can quickly create a new page by copying a [[:Category:Templates|Template]] and filling in the blanks. See [[:Category:Templates|Templates]] for more information.

====Creating A New Article====
One thing that's very important to know is how to create a new article. The best way to do this is to edit an existing page, link to the new article that you want to create, and then follow that link. If you can't think of any pages that would be appropriate to link to your new page, don't worry, there's still two easy ways to create your article. The first is to use the search box to search for your new article. If it doesn't already exist you will be presented with a link to create your new page. If you create a new article in this method, be sure to put it in the appropriate [[Special:Categories|categories]].

The other way to create a new page is to edit any page at all, create the link to your new page, click "Show Preview", and then follow the link to create your new page. Once you're done writing your new page you don't need to permanently save the link you created on the original page.

The reason why there isn't another way to create new pages is because if you don't link the page from any existing pages nobody will be able to get to it. The page becomes what the wiki calls an [[:Special:Lonelypages|"orphaned" page]]. Orphaned pages don't do anything helpful and are not really a part ot the wiki. So in review, figure out what page is going to bring people to your new page, make a link, follow that link, add to the page, categorize the page. That should be the work progression that everybody follows when making a new page.

====Naming Pages====
We have some simple guidelines in place for naming new pages. Omit any articles ("the" "a" "an") at the beginning of a name. Also, capitalize each word in a multi-word title. If you come across any pages that don't follow this naming convention, feel free to move them to the proper name by clicking the "move" button at the top of the page.

====Categories====
All areas, lists of gear or mobs, or other pages which logically "contain" other pages should be created as categories. Category naming follows the same rules as page naming, but use plural nouns when appropriate. [[:Category:Mobs In Midgaard]], [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse]] and [[:Category:Hero Tank Gear]] are some example categories.

To put a page in a category, put <nowiki>[[Category: blah]]</nowiki> anywhere on the page (but preferably at the bottom). More specific categories are better places to put new pages.

To link to a category page without making the page you're editing a part of that category, do something like <nowiki>[[:Category:blah]]</nowiki> <--that. The important part is the colon ( : ) in front of the word Category.

If you think that having your link say "Category:" in front of it is ugly, you can rename the link with a pipe ( | ). For instance, by typing <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]</nowiki> I've made this link to the same page as the one linked above: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Apoc Gear]]. BTW, link renaming works for all links, not just those to categories.

Recently I discovered a short-cut for renaming categories. If you type in <nowiki>[[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|]]</nowiki> the wiki parser will automatically figure out what you mean, and fill in the rest for you. Here's what it looks like: [[:Category:Gear In Apocalypse|Gear In Apocalypse]]

====Editing Secrets====
Other than that we don't have any big secrets to making nice Wiki pages. To edit a page, click on the edit link at the top of the page. From there the Wiki software does a good job of explaining the editing features. You can also use simple HTML to format a page if you'd like. If you can't figure something out, try looking at '''http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing.'''

====Your First Contribution====
If starting a new page seems daunting there are pages that currently exist but need fleshing out. Take a look at the [[:Category:Incomplete|Incomplete]] page for those that need a bit more information.

====Spoilers====
If you are adding something which is a spoiler, but which you feel the subject's author won't object to you revealing on the wiki, then you can use the <nowiki><spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler></nowiki> tags, which would produce this: <spoiler> My spoiler text. </spoiler>

The tags will happily work inside a table, and text can precede the tag to the left, but due to a hardcoded carriage return, cannot go on the right side of it.

[[Category: Wiki Stuff]]

User:Spaghetti

2012-03-20T18:03:27Z

Spaghetti:

Spaghetti. Plates of it.

[[Category: Users]]

User:Spaghetti

2012-03-20T18:03:09Z

Spaghetti: Created page with "Spaghetti. Plates of it. [Category: Users]"

Spaghetti. Plates of it.

[Category: Users]

Talk:Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-20T17:34:34Z

Spaghetti: spoiler flag

Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-20T17:16:03Z

Spaghetti: Flags placed in accordance with builder request should not be removed without that builder's consent.

{{nospoilers|who= Pulse}}

The [[Shield Of The Tree]] is a difficult quest in the Transfigured Forest. It is very hard to solo parts of the quest and will require several players or several alts with different alignments/fighting styles.

You will need eight different items before you are ready to obtain the shield.

Three can be found scattered around the area, in no fixed location.

<spoiler>
Retrieve the following items:
* [[Clump Of Stone|clump of stone]]
* [[Clump Of Leaves|clump of leaves]]
* [[Clump Of Ice|clump of ice]]
These are scattered around on several mobs. The ice is in the tree on a [[Giant Creature Of Ice]], the leaves on a [[Giant-Shaped Swirl Of Leaves]], and the stone on a [[Trunk Of Stone]] near the entrance.
</spoiler>

You will also need four items which will generally require four different characters to gain.

<spoiler>
You will also need to get one of each of the mana items:
* [[Gnarled Branch Of Age]]
* [[Swirl Of Fumes]]
* [[Grey Orb Of Stone]]
* [[Crackling Sphere Of Lightning]]
Since each of these require a certain type of player to get you will need a mix of good/melee, good/caster, evil/melee, evil/caster.
</spoiler>

After you have all these items get started by getting the [[Glowing Root|root]] in the secret tunnel. Give it to the [[Heavily Scarred Ent]] to begin the quest.

<spoiler>
He will give you a new [[Glowing Root (Transformed)|glowing root]]. You will then give the new root to the [[Vortex Of Souls]] which will take it and the four mana items and give you a [[Glowing Seed|glowing seed]]. Take the seed back to the scarred ent and give it to him. He will take it and the three clumps and give you the [[Shield Of The Tree]].
</spoiler>

[[Category: Quests In Transfigured Forest]]
[[Category: Hero Quests]]

Talk:Shield Of The Tree Quest

2012-03-20T17:09:49Z

Spaghetti: Comments regarding spoilers